AllGrip operation

I'm patiently waiting for my car (1.4S) to be delivered - in the meantime a question about the 4-wheel drive system. Are there restrictions on when it can be used in the other than auto settings (i.e. snow, sport and lock)? I have a Jimny with 'real' (i.e. part-time) 4-wheel drive but because it lacks a 'front-to-back differential' the 4-wheel drive can only be used on slippery surfaces or else driveline windup occurs with expensive results. I'm guessing that AllGrip does not have such restrictions and that the only downside to using the non-auto settings inappropriately is increased fuel consumption?

Mike

Just collected my car so now I can reply to my own question for the benefit of anyone else! There are no real restrictions on using the AllGrip but you will get higher tyre wear and fuel consumption if it's used inappropriately.

Try using the Sport Mode; that will certainly give you tyre wear !! Auto setting should give you all the traction you will need, but guess snow mode is a better option when the going gets tuff. Lock is speed restricted and I think around 45 kph.; only advisable to use it as an alternative of getting a tow.

A good video on the allgrip function.

worth a look

allgrip

That is a great little video.
Even I now understand how the system works.
GS

http://www.globalsuzuki.com/allgrip/index.html

Scroll down for some more videos on Allgrip

Hello everyone.
Here is some real tested info about All Grip:
4-wheel drive system is only a part of full All Grip system.
In fact, all modes (except Lock) works very similar. They are all proactive and they are all from 100:0 to 50:50.
Snow mode is a little bit stronger than Auto (about 1.25), it doesn't give us permanent 4x4, unfortunately there is a lot of 2WD driving.
Lock is also active (not constant 50:50), but here we have at least 75:25 before we even start moving. Full lock (50:50) is only in case of slippage, but it works the same in every mode.
No matter what mode we choose, we always start by 4x4 - every gas pressure engages back wheels.
While driving straight with stable speed, there is always 2WD (except Lock, below 60 km/h).

DS wrote:Hello everyone.
Here is some real tested info about All Grip:
4-wheel drive system is only a part of full All Grip system.
In fact, all modes (except Lock) works very similar. They are all proactive and they are all from 100:0 to 50:50.
Snow mode is a little bit stronger than Auto (about 1.25), it doesn't give us permanent 4x4, unfortunately there is a lot of 2WD driving.
Lock is also active (not constant 50:50), but here we have at least 75:25 before we even start moving. Full lock (50:50) is only in case of slippage, but it works the same in every mode.
No matter what mode we choose, we always start by 4x4 - every gas pressure engages back wheels.
While driving straight with stable speed, there is always 2WD (except Lock, below 60 km/h).

Great infomation !

DS wrote:Hello everyone.
Here is some real tested info about All Grip:
4-wheel drive system is only a part of full All Grip system.
In fact, all modes (except Lock) works very similar. They are all proactive and they are all from 100:0 to 50:50.
Snow mode is a little bit stronger than Auto (about 1.25), it doesn't give us permanent 4x4, unfortunately there is a lot of 2WD driving.
Lock is also active (not constant 50:50), but here we have at least 75:25 before we even start moving. Full lock (50:50) is only in case of slippage, but it works the same in every mode.
No matter what mode we choose, we always start by 4x4 - every gas pressure engages back wheels.
While driving straight with stable speed, there is always 2WD (except Lock, below 60 km/h).

Like the detailed info about the AllGrip system. Thanks DS.

That is just short summary of All Grip Select
By the way, here is how it works on 3 roller test:

Very nice video

I have been finding that i get slightly better average fuel consumption on the trip computer when i engage sport mode, which surprised me a bit... ?

The car always defaults to Auto mode when i recycle the Ignition switch tho.

My car still has less than 3000 miles on the clock tho so still early days.

Since buying our Vitara Allgrip I have been wondering exactly how the rear coupling works?
We have a transfer box bolted to the usual transaxle gearbox which changes the drive output 90 degrees and which permanently spins the propshaft. We have the rear differential which is always spinning with the rear tyres - so we need this coupling between the rear axle and propshaft, as both axles will be going different speeds whenever we turn.
In Haldex cars this coupling is an oil/wet clutch pack. In our Vitara Allgrip it is a dry clutch pack.
In Haldex there is a motor and worm gear which clamps the clutch pack - but we have nothing like that in the Vitara.

If you look at photos of it it only has a small wire coming out of it - and I have been thinking how on earth can this small wire provide enough current for locking a large clutch pack!

Well it seems there are two dry clutch packs within the coupling mounting on the front of the rear differential, the first electro magnetic/small clutch pack is clamped by pulse width modulation signal which varies depending on driving mode and Allgrip control module, this in turn reacts on balls and ramp - which amplifies/levers the small rotational torque from the small clutch pack into a large clamping force - which clamps the large clutch pack - ingenious!




Found these videos really interesting:

https://youtu.be/HiGLsy_6FA8?si=sBt1KOow4qUO2zwz
You can see from this video - even in auto there is always some rear axle engagement when ever you take off from standstill - it doesn't wait for slip and then react as you read many times.
https://youtu.be/zuxnsJDni34?si=VB6oUS2dJ4mnQ-Qk

A limitation is heat, as these are dry clutches, prolonged use will heat them up. Whenever you are turning and they are varying torque to the rear axle they are slipping the clutch pack and generating heat/wear.

Also, I wonder how Allgrip works in overrun situations?
So with my old Audi A4 quattro (real quattro!) that was a permeant 4wd torsen system like a Range Rover - and one benefit never mentioned was if you lift off and induce engine braking in a bend in the snow/rain you still have all 4 wheels connected and felt very sure footed & confidence inspiring. I wonder how these on demand systems are programed to respond in the same situation?

I'm certain that you'll find that the control clutch is a wet clutch and shares the same oil as the main clutch pack.
I think I've got an image of a dismantled rear drive coupling at home amongst my old training material, but you might have to wait until I get back from Scotland before I can dig it out and post it up.
Torque to the rear wheels is disengaged on the over runin all drive modes other than lock mode which maintains 50/50 split in all drive conditions until deactivated at about 40mph.
Torque to rear wheels can be engaged under certain esp conditions to help maintain control.

imack wrote:I'm certain that you'll find that the control clutch is a wet clutch and shares the same oil as the main clutch pack.
I think I've got an image of a dismantled rear drive coupling at home amongst my old training material,  but you might have to wait until I get back from Scotland before I can dig it out and post it up.
Torque to the rear wheels is disengaged on the over runin all drive modes other than lock mode which  maintains 50/50 split in all drive conditions until deactivated at about 40mph.
Torque to rear wheels can be engaged under certain esp conditions to help maintain control.

Ah yes, GKN say its a closed/sealed clutch lubrication.


and Jtekt mention oil grooves in the clutch control. Not sure who supplies the Vitara allgrip coupling?

Got a chance to look before I went away.
Suzuki use a lot of Aisin Warner for transmission units, so wouldn't be surprised if it's produced by them.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

As long as it's not the Haldex wet clutch system. I drove Insignia VXRs (OPC) for a number of years and the Haldex usually failed after 30k miles. Fortunately, this was still within the warranty period so mine were replaced FOC (otherwise typically £3k cost). Advanced warning was  crabbbing and shuddering on tight turns. Haldex is used in a number of VAG and Volvo types. Interestingly, no vehicle manufacturer ever issued a service schedule for fluid and filter. Those owners who did change fluid and filter on a 12k miles schedule never had any issues.

The Suzuki rear drive coupling seems to be pretty reliable in my experience, I don't remember seeing a failed one on any Suzuki model in almost 20 years of working on Suzukis.
Suzuki did issue a bulletin warning of seized/overheated rear drive couplings where customers has a similar down vehicles towed incorrectly with the front wheels on a towing dolly and the rear wheels on the ground. I've seen this towing method cause a drive coupling to seize and split open on a 4x4 vauxhall mokka, which uses a similar AWD system to Suzukis.
We also used to see a lot of rear diff cases break open on Hyundai Santa-fe and Tuson with failed drive couplings, but these were hydraulically operated.
Didn't see any haldex failures on Seat, but there's not many AWD Seats out there.
Did have some issues with the Haldex in the Vauxhall Insignia, but I only had remember having problems with the hydraulic clutch for the LSD, not the drive coupling.

I can see a TSB for judder on Insignia's - Vehicle judder 18/08/2015, 15-E-3206, and a new Haldex unit required - so i'm presuming this would mostly be covered under warranty.
Regarding VAG cars, they do have a service interval for a fluid change for your Haldex oil - whether or not a filter is required depends on what generation of Haldex coupling you have.

SuperV8 wrote:I can see a TSB for judder on Insignia's - Vehicle judder 18/08/2015, 15-E-3206, and a new Haldex unit required - so i'm presuming this would mostly be covered under warranty.
Regarding VAG cars, they do have a service interval for a fluid change for your Haldex oil - whether or not a filter is required depends on what generation of Haldex coupling you have.

The problem with the Siggy VXR (OPC) is that it's a 2 ton vehicle with 325 BHP and 435Nm of torque. The transmission was at its design limits regardless of whether or not manual or auto options were fitted. I had both and about 30k miles was the typical failure period. Replacement under warranty was only possible if within the warranty period, although some models were sold with a lifetime (100,000 mile) warranty to the original owner. Yes, some versions of the Haldex had a service interval with some manufacturers but only after Gen 4-5 ( I think), which seemed more reliable. It's a moot point if that reliability was because of design changes, or the recommended service

More's the pity as the VXR was a great machine with a lower entry cost than the equivalent Audi Quattro. Mind you, it was an expensive beast to run.

crozier wrote:

SuperV8 wrote:I can see a TSB for judder on Insignia's - Vehicle judder 18/08/2015, 15-E-3206, and a new Haldex unit required - so i'm presuming this would mostly be covered under warranty.
Regarding VAG cars, they do have a service interval for a fluid change for your Haldex oil - whether or not a filter is required depends on what generation of Haldex coupling you have.

The problem with the Siggy VXR (OPC) is that it's a 2 ton vehicle with 325 BHP and 435Nm of torque. The transmission was at its design limits regardless of whether or not manual or auto options were fitted. I had both and about 30k miles was the typical failure period. Replacement under warranty was only possible if within the warranty period, although some models were sold with a lifetime (100,000 mile) warranty to the original owner. Yes, some versions of the Haldex had a service interval with some manufacturers but only after Gen 4-5 ( I think), which seemed more reliable. It's a moot point if that reliability was because of design changes, or the recommended service

More's the pity as the VXR was a great machine with a lower entry cost than the equivalent Audi Quattro. Mind you, it was an expensive beast to run.

Quite a rare beastie - the Insignia VXR!
I had an Audi A4 B6 quattro (real torsen quattro ) and that was such a lovely car to drive - with the quattro system it was amazing in the winter, a permanent awd system with central differential (like a range rover), in a snowy carpark it would pirouette around its centre like the rally car celebrations!