1st to 2nd gear vitara s

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Post by Yorkshire pud on Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:17 pm

Had my vitara s 1.4 boosterjet with manual transmission for a couple of weeks now, fantastic upgrade from the sx4 s cross I had before but one thing that niggles me is the gearchange from 1st to 2nd it goes with a clunk and seems stiff to engage 2nd ???
But here's the weird thing, sometimes 2nd goes in smooth with no clunk or resistance!!!
Cant work out what I'm doing wrong.
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Post by Admin on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:40 am

Gear oil viscosity can vary with temperature, warmer temps make oil thinner and cold thicker and as the temperatures have dropped over the last few weeks your gear oil is going to be thicker causing your synchos to baulk (clunk)
There is somewhere on the forum a bulletin for the gear oil to be changed, i think Gargreen has changed his on his S and said it improved gear changes

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Post by Ziga Vitara on Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:15 am

I have similar "problems" but when shifting to reverse. As Karl wrote, it depends on temperatures, in the past week when it was very warm, no problems at all, since yesterday as it got significantly colder, I experience problems on occasion. But that happened on all of my previous cars as well.
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Post by Yorkshire pud on Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:07 pm

Thanks Karl, but why only on 2nd gear is it doing this?
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Post by Admin on Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:11 pm

It is all down to rotational speeds, changing up into 2nd is usually when you are going slower allowing things not to be in synch but by the time you get to 3rd/4th/5th/6th the gears/synchro hubs are going quick enough for everything to be more aligned and not relying on the synchro ring as much
It is like walking onto an escalator, if you step slowly onto a moving escalator you tend to jolt as it is not a fluid movement (2nd gear) but if you walk at a steady pace similar to the escalator it all goes smoothly (3rd/4th/5th/6th gear)

Not including the gear lever and selector fork there are 3 parts involved in a synchromesh, the synchro hub/sleeve, the synchro ring and the gear

1st to 2nd gear vitara s Asigea10

As the selector hub/sleeve moves to engage a gear it presses on the synchro ring that then acts as a brake and slows the gear to align the dog teeth between the synchro hub/sleeve and the gear itself

To prevent the synchro ring seizing to the gear there are oil grooves inside the synchro ring...

1st to 2nd gear vitara s Oil_gr10

...and this is where your problem stems from, due to lower temperatures your gear oil is now thicker and not allowing the synchro ring to slow the gear down enough to align the dog teeth and change smoothly that is giving you the clunk or baulking

Karl

p.s the above is an abbreviation of how a synchro ring works and to give a general idea,
the Vitara gearbox uses a 3 piece synchro ring on 1st and 2nd gear that doubles the surface area to slow/align the gear but if the oil is too thick it also possibly doubles the problem
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Post by Yorkshire pud on Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:31 pm

Blimey a very informative explanation! Thanks for that!
I feel a trip to the Suzuki dealership coming for a gearbox oil change.
I've discovered that if I drive in 1st to 3,000 rpm then do a slow light pressure on the gear lever into 2nd it makes the gearchange a bit smoother if timed right Wink Wink
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Post by Admin on Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:52 pm

Yorkshire pud wrote:Blimey a very informative explanation! Thanks for that!

My family business is rebuilding transmissions for classic/competition cars so I hit geek mode when it comes to transmissions lol!

Just found this on the Diesel 6 Speed (Fiat Engine and Gearbox) but still looking for the S TSB link

http://vivavitara.forumotion.co.uk/t490-6-speed-manual-gear-change-problems-1st-to-2nd-gear?highlight=gear+oil#3238

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Post by Gar Green on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:19 pm

Karl is correct. I’ve changed my gear oil from 75w80 to 75. The difference is very noticeable. Suzuki will cover this for you if you call to mention it, it was a released bulletin so any dealer worth their salt will know how to action it.
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Post by Yorkshire pud on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:53 pm

Ok thanks Gar Green! I will ask for 75w gear oil and see what they say....

Is there any drawback to this oil? As I noticed the regular gear oil is good for 90,000 miles if I'm reading the manual right?
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Post by Yorkshire pud on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:59 pm

Oh, page 11-6 of the manual does say Suzuki gear oil 75w.
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Post by Gar Green on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:23 pm

Yorkshire pud wrote:Ok thanks Gar Green! I will ask for 75w gear oil and see what they say....

Is there any drawback to this oil? As I noticed the regular gear oil is good for 90,000 miles if I'm reading the manual right?

Warranty works on customer complaints not requests. Tell them what you’ve said here, that it’s notchy first to seconds and is there a fix for it.
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Post by Tony's here on Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:12 pm

If you want clunky gear change try a BMW boxer motorbike prior to latest models Shocked a definite technique required. I replaced the gear box & bevel box oil with synthetic this did improve matters, has anyone tried this on their Vitara?

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Post by jimbo on Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:45 am

Hi Yorkshire pud

I would pressure your dealer to fix the problem .
I had no luck with my car even after the oil change and ended up moving it on , it's shame because I really liked the car but could not put up with the poor gear change.

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Post by digger06 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:47 am

it helps with the oil change,
but don't expect a lot of Suzuki gearchanges (car OR bike) to be silky smooth, imo Suzuki make clunky box,s compared to most,

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Post by jimbo on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:56 pm

hi Digger06
the 6 speed box is a fiat gearbox

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Post by Yorkshire pud on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:16 pm

Does the vitara s have the Fiat gearbox ?
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Post by Admin on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:43 pm

jimbo wrote:hi Digger06
the 6 speed box is a fiat gearbox

The manual 6 speed in the Diesel is a Fiat gearbox but the Petrol 1.4 S is a Suzuki 6 speed

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Post by Gar Green on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:45 pm

Yorkshire pud wrote:Does the vitara s have the Fiat gearbox ?

No, the diesel box is FIat. Boosterjet box is Suzuki.
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Post by Yorkshire pud on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:49 pm

Right thanks for clearing that up! It was getting a bit confusing.
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Post by Ken H on Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:54 am

BUT do they both suffer from the same problem ie poor 1st to second gear change

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Post by Tony's here on Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:58 pm

Ken H wrote:BUT do they both suffer from the same problem  ie  poor 1st to second gear change

My previous model SX4 Fiat engine/gearbox did, if they are not the same unit they certainly share the same issue.

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Post by Admin on Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:27 pm

Diesel engined SX4/S-cross/Vitara share the same Fiat 6 speed gearbox that has the well known 2nd gear synchro issue (The synchro kits are even listed on ebay italy)

The 1.4 S petrol has a Suzuki 6 speed and having driven my fathers manual (mine is an auto) i have not experienced any 2nd gear synchro issues. There was a member or two that said they had problems but a bulletin from Suzuki sugested an oil change to eliminate this

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Post by Tony's here on Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:12 pm

Admin wrote:Diesel engined SX4/S-cross/Vitara share the same Fiat 6 speed gearbox that has the well known 2nd gear synchro issue (The synchro kits are even listed on ebay italy)

The 1.4 S petrol has a Suzuki 6 speed and having driven my fathers manual (mine is an auto) i have not experienced any 2nd gear synchro issues. There was a member or two that said they had problems but a bulletin from Suzuki sugested an oil change to eliminate this

Karl

Suspect it is an oil issue as when warm it mostly goes away. You always associate Japanese mechanicals as being the pinnacle but they too have their foibles.

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Post by Gar Green on Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:27 pm

Tony's here wrote:
Admin wrote:Diesel engined SX4/S-cross/Vitara share the same Fiat 6 speed gearbox that has the well known 2nd gear synchro issue (The synchro kits are even listed on ebay italy)

The 1.4 S petrol has a Suzuki 6 speed and having driven my fathers manual (mine is an auto) i have not experienced any 2nd gear synchro issues. There was a member or two that said they had problems but a bulletin from Suzuki sugested an oil change to eliminate this

Karl

Suspect it is an oil issue as when warm it mostly goes away. You always associate Japanese mechanicals as being the pinnacle but they too have their foibles.

Blame the Hungarians, that’s where they’re made.
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Post by Tony's here on Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:35 pm

Gar Green wrote:
Tony's here wrote:
Admin wrote:Diesel engined SX4/S-cross/Vitara share the same Fiat 6 speed gearbox that has the well known 2nd gear synchro issue (The synchro kits are even listed on ebay italy)

The 1.4 S petrol has a Suzuki 6 speed and having driven my fathers manual (mine is an auto) i have not experienced any 2nd gear synchro issues. There was a member or two that said they had problems but a bulletin from Suzuki sugested an oil change to eliminate this

Karl

Suspect it is an oil issue as when warm it mostly goes away. You always associate Japanese mechanicals as being the pinnacle but they too have their foibles.

Blame the Hungarians, that’s where they’re made.

You always associate Hungary with goulash, first to second gear in same category Very Happy

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