Does Allgrip Require Servicing?

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Does Allgrip Require Servicing? Empty Does Allgrip Require Servicing?

Post by Fin69 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:43 pm

I have the Haldex 4 system fitted to my Skoda Octavia Scout, this requires a Haldex oil change every 3 years or 37.5k. (Skoda don't replace the filter as they claim there isn't one, even though there is and Volvo replace it during their service).

I have yet to see any posts on here specifically mention Allgrip servicing, is the system therefore fit and forget?

If not, what it's involved and how much is it?

Many thanks, Fin

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Post by Joakim on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:13 pm

I dont really know the answer, but i do know that allgrip is all 4wd tech from suzuki, there are at least 3 different systems. Allgrip auto, allgrip select and allgrip pro.
They all work in different ways.

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Post by Yorkshire pud on Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:05 pm

I'm assuming it's just an oil change in the front transfer box and rear differential Question
The propshaft and its centre carrier bearing and 2 universal joints are all non serviceable so if something goes wrong with either of those parts you have to have the whole lot replaced I think pale
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Post by crozier on Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:10 pm

Fin69 wrote:I have the Haldex 4 system fitted to my Skoda Octavia Scout, this requires a Haldex oil change every 3 years or 37.5k. (Skoda don't replace the filter as they claim there isn't one,  even though there is and Volvo replace it during their service).

I have yet to see any posts on here specifically mention Allgrip servicing,  is the system therefore fit and forget?

If not,  what it's involved and how much is it?

Many thanks,  Fin

Hi Fin. You raise a very interesting point here. I also own an Insignia VXR/OPC which has the haldex system. On the Insignia, the haldex pretty much fails every 30-40 thousand miles (48-65 thousand kilometres). I would say about 80% of owners experience this. I've had 2x Insignia VXRs and both had haldex replacement under warranty at about 32k miles/50k Kms. That said, the VXR is a 2 ton car with 325 BHP, but this haldex issue has caused much discussion on VXR forums.

The bottom line is that VAG and now PAG use the haldex system, and very few vehicles have a recommended service interval, which is just plain stupid. It's interesting that Skoda do have a service interval, and this makes perfect sense. The haldex uses a wet clutch system and the friction materials coming off the clutches gets suspended in the fluid and eventually clogs the filter, which causes the pump to fail and then the clutches get destroyed.

There are 5 current variants of the haldex unit, and the latest doesn't have a replaceable filter, hence the advice you have been given could be correct, but only if your Skoda is relatively new. There is a small filter on the V5  pump housing which should be cleaned when the fluid is replaced. All other variants have filters, but not all vehicle manufacturers list a part number for it, as you have found out.  The fluid is like Unicorn wee! I was quoted 700 GBP for a Haldex service for my VXR affraid There are a number of interesting articles on the web about the haldex and on other forums like VW, Volvo, etc. Those in the know claim that a regular service is all that is needed to prevent the haldex suffering premature failure, yet very few manufacturers publish a service interval or list part numbers for the filters.

The good news for Suzuki owners is that the All Grip systems doesn't use the Borg Warner Haldex. The AWD is Suzuki's own design and doesn't use wet clutches. There is another AWD system used on smaller models, such as the Swift, that uses a viscous coupling, which is a much simpler and cheaper system but without the sophistication of the Vitara/ SX4 All Grip.

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Post by Admin on Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:59 pm

The AllGrip system on the Vitara and S-cross has been around for longer than the launch of the S-cross in 2013/Vitara in 2015
It was originally used in the 2006 Suzuki SX4 and Fiat Sedici but had a more simple electronics and mode select.
The modes were simply 2WD, 4WD Auto and 4WD Lock, in 4WD Auto the system used ABS wheel speeds to distribute drive to the rear via input to an electro magnetic clutch in the rear diff, 4WD Lock simply locked the EMC to give 50/50 drive. In lock there was a failsafe that returned to 4WD Auto after 40mph and there was also a temperature sensor that would default to 2WD if things got too warm and prevented any damage to the system
The above system was sometimes referred to as 4grip and around 2010 Electronic Stability Program was added and was sometimes called i-AWD and as well as ABS input the system would use ESP data to distribute drive in 4WD Auto mode



The good news is the above and the system used today apart from regular oil changes are pretty bullet proof
One thing that could damage the system is the use of odd tyres or unevenly worn tyres, it is also recommended to select all the 4WD options once in a while as I did have a Sedici develop a vibration due to a seized rear propshaft UJ as the system had never been in 4WD for 96'000 miles during ownership



SX4/Sedici rear diff...

Does Allgrip Require Servicing? Screen28

VITARA/S-CROSS rear diff...

Does Allgrip Require Servicing? Screen29

As you can see the units are near identical other than the front drive flange

Karl


Last edited by Admin on Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Fin69 on Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:29 pm

Many thanks all for your responses.

Reference the 'regular oil service', is this carried out as part of annaul/long life service or is it something you have to request. Also, what oil is used during this service.

Reference the VX Haldex failures, I'm not aware of any Haldex failures on the Skoda forum I am a member of. My vehicle is now over 9 years old and and 110,000 miles and, touch wood, I have had no issues with it. Having said that, nowhere in the documentation provided with my vehicle does it mention Haldex servicing, I only became aware of it via the Skoda forum I am am a member of. It is not carried out as part of routine servicing; 9,400 mile annual/18,000 variable, as it is required every 3 years or 37,500 miles, or whatever is reached first. I have spoken to several VAG owners who have Haldex equipped vehicles; 4motion, quattro et al, and the vast majority were unaware these systems required separatate servicing, so it is possible there are VAG vehicles running around with defective Haldex systems.

Even during the Skoda Haldex service, they don't replace the filter in Haldex 4 or clean it in Haldex 5 as they claim no such filter exists. Even though I had my third Haldex oil service carried out last year (£79), I had a Haldex Oil and filter service carried out at a respected Audi independent for £160, the filter was about £55 alone.

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Post by Admin on Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:38 pm



Fin69 wrote:Reference the VX Haldex failures, I'm not aware of any Haldex failures on the Skoda forum I am a member of.  ……... so it is possible there are VAG vehicles running around with defective Haldex systems.

Any non selectable 4wd system is prone to damage 99% of the time due to odd size/brand/wear rate tyres, this is why manufacturers often state in the owners manual (usually in small print) that all tyres must be of the same diameter/brand with equal rotation, many dealers don't even know this hence fitting a new set of tyres on the front and not a set of four not knowing the possible damage this can cause
The easiest way to describe this is it is like have a heel fall off your one shoe and you are always trying to correct this while walking, the 4wd system is the same with an odd sized tyre but this then generates heat/wear causing 4wd failure

Unfortunately the Haldex system (now I believe on Gen 5?) is riddled with failures along with a lot of confusion on the servicing schedule/oils and filter etc, so much so there are even companies specialising in Haldex repairs....

https://www.haldexrepairs.co.uk/

The Vitara/S-Cross AllGrip service schedule states oil change every 100,000 miles (50,000 miles for severe driving) and an inspection at 25,000 miles (12,500 miles for severe driving) for the transfer and rear diff

Transfer : SUZUKI GEAR OIL 75W-85 - 0.88 – 0.98 liters
Rear Diff : SUZUKI GEAR OIL 75W-85 - 0.7 – 0.9 liters

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Post by crozier on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:10 pm

Admin wrote:

Fin69 wrote:Reference the VX Haldex failures, I'm not aware of any Haldex failures on the Skoda forum I am a member of.  ……... so it is possible there are VAG vehicles running around with defective Haldex systems.

Any non selectable 4wd system is prone to damage 99% of the time due to odd size/brand/wear rate tyres, this is why manufacturers often state in the owners manual (usually in small print) that all tyres must be of the same diameter/brand with equal rotation, many dealers don't even know this hence fitting a new set of tyres on the front and not a set of four not knowing the possible damage this can cause
The easiest way to describe this is it is like have a heel fall off your one shoe and you are always trying to correct this while walking, the 4wd system is the same with an odd sized tyre but this then generates heat/wear causing 4wd failure

Unfortunately the Haldex system (now I believe on Gen 5?) is riddled with failures along with a lot of confusion on the servicing schedule/oils and filter etc, so much so there are even companies specialising in Haldex repairs....

https://www.haldexrepairs.co.uk/

The Vitara/S-Cross AllGrip service schedule states oil change every 100,000 miles (50,000 miles for severe driving) and an inspection at 25,000 miles (12,500 miles for severe driving) for the transfer and rear diff

Transfer : SUZUKI GEAR OIL 75W-85 - 0.88 – 0.98 liters
Rear Diff : SUZUKI GEAR OIL 75W-85 - 0.7 – 0.9 liters

Karl

What he says... Smile

Thanks for the link. I'll pass it on to the VXR UK forum

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Post by Admin on Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:03 pm

Snow testing Suzuki SX4 (Gen 1 AllGrip?) vs Ford Kuga (Haldex equipped)

Both have winter tires:
Kuga: Fulda Krisalp 235 55 17
Suzuki: Sava Eskimo HP 205 60 16




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Post by Petrust on Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:12 am

That's impressive performance on that steep hill.......  the SX4, not the Kuga!
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Post by STDI on Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:37 am

There are much many variables than the 4WD-system that can give this difference in performance. So I don't disqualify the Kuga from this video.

But I'm still impressed with the performance of the Vitara S from my first test drive. I was at a ski resort in the middle of Sweden where you could test Vitara S, AllGrip, Automatic. I drove about 10 km on snowy roads and then came to a small test track with steep hills and deep snow that had been prepared as a ski sloop with pist machines. On top of that maybe 15 cm of untouched snow. I started in Snow and Mud. The wheels started to dig. Changed to Lock. Still digging and then the engine almost stalled. ESP off and the car went up the hill and through the track. I was impressed and ordered my car next week. It's now 2.5 years old and I have driven it for 76 000 km.

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Post by Yorkshire pud on Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:54 pm

Why did you have to turn esp off?
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Post by Fin69 on Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:07 pm


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Post by STDI on Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:00 am

Yorkshire pud wrote:Why did you have to turn esp off?
With ESP (traction control) on you can't use the throttle to spin the wheels. Instead the engine (almost) stalls. And then you don't get up the hill. This is what the video shows.
But turn it off only if it's really necessary. Because normally it's a very good safety feature.


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Post by Yorkshire pud on Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:24 am

Right I didnt know that.
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Post by Admin on Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:12 am

STDI wrote:..... I was at a ski resort in the middle of Sweden where you could test Vitara S, AllGrip, Automatic. I drove about 10 km on snowy roads and then came to a small test track with steep hills and deep snow that had been prepared as a ski sloop with pist machines

Now that is how you sell cars........and all we get in the UK is Take That visiting middle age women who think they are still in with a chance with Gary Barlow.......and don't even get me started on who thought the goggle box adverts were a good idea Rolling Eyes

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Post by STDI on Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:40 am

I was already interested in the Vitara S and had tested it at the local dealer. But this was the test drive that made me order it.

https://www.stoten.se/suzuki/ Here you can read about the Suzuki 4X4 Center at the ski resort. Use google to translate.

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